The Coffee House Wall – 16th/22nd March

Posted on March 16, 2015

This is the Coffee House Wall for this week. I won’t say that it is your chance to communicate with us, as we are all in this together. It is, nevertheless, the Conservative Blog post that has no particular theme, and where everything is on topic. Let’s just remember that we want to avoid ad hominem attacks on others. We don’t want to engage with trolls. We want to moderate our language ourselves as responsible and mature adults, choosing to use fruity language only where it is necessary. This is our opportunity to show what the Spectator Coffee House Wall could have been like.

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166 thoughts on “The Coffee House Wall – 16th/22nd March”

  1. Radford NG @ 08:29

    That was 1787, this is 2015, Radford, different opinions may still form for man hasn’t changed at all in the having-an-opinion department, the thing is though all opinions are not only unequal, (some are less so), but dangerous to hold if one wants to avoid having a criminal record. Progress that.

  2. A fly falls into a cup of coffee:

    The Italian: throws the cup, breaks it and walks away in a fit of rage.

    The German: carefully washes the cup, sterilizes it and makes a new cup of coffee.

    The Frenchman: takes out the fly and drinks the coffee.

    The Chinese: eats the fly and throws away the coffee.

    The Russian: drinks the coffee with the fly, since it came with no extra charge.

    The Israeli: sells the coffee to the Frenchman, sells the fly to the Chinese, sells the cup to the Italian, drinks a cup of tea and uses the extra money to invent a device that prevents flies from falling into coffee.

    The Palestinian: blames the Israeli for the fly falling into his coffee, protests the act to the UN as an act of aggression, takes a loan from the European Union to buy a new cup of coffee, uses the money to purchase explosives and then blows up the coffee house where the Italian, Frenchman, Chinese, German and Russian are all trying to explain to the Israeli that he should give his cup of tea to the Palestinian.

  3. EC March 16th, 2015 – 08:20

    Colonel Mustard – 07:20

    An excellent idea.

    The irony is that the Police are forbidden to become Freemasons, members of BNP etc., yet the politically subversive Common Purpose is OK.

    I do not think that the police are forbidden!

  5. Nigel is having a go, but, as he himself says, the foundations of a EU fighting force are already there, soon it won’t be the Black Watch, the Green Howards, the Grenadier, Coldstream, Scots, Irish and Welsh Guards …. but the 1st Rainbow Multi Culti Tank battalion

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hI5_pMvLZd8

  7. Baron – 12:17

    “Nigel is having a go…”

    Back in 1967 you were probably preoccupied on the front lines with the Bear’s response to the Prague Spring. However back in the UK on ITV we had an intriguing(*) and exciting new TV series to watch called “The Prisoner” starring Patrick McGoohan in the title role of No.6.

    The fourth episode is called “Free For All”. The prison is called “The Village” and the commandant is always called No.2. In this episode the current No2. persuades No.6 to stand for election against him for the position of No.2 . Psychological warfare is declared and even physical threats of intimidation ensue! Parts of this episode are viewable on YouTube

    The more things change, the more things stay the same. Perhaps this time around Nigel is being cast as No.6?

    In the absence of Top Gear on Sunday evenings I shall be watching my box set of “The Prisoner” instead of the dross and/or repeats that they will be showing.

    (*) It was a complete mystery to others, but thankfully I “go it” on the first screening.

  10. EC (12:58)

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1325935/Straw-scores-own-goal-with-Freemasons-register.html

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8713343/Freemasons-in-the-police-leading-the-attack-on-David-Camerons-riot-response.html

    ‘Hobbies groups’, or ‘charitable organisations’ or various ‘Associations’ within the professional organisations of the corridors of power have always, and will always, morph into ‘ways and means’ cabals. The latest of these to groups, e.g. the Queer Associations (I’ve lost track of the varieties of Queerdom, but I’m sure you could list the acronyms) and the various ethnic groupings, already show clear indications that those within such cliques are ‘looking after their own’ – even more so than the Masons once did. Common Purpose seems to trump them all, it seems. When the ‘Associations’ are open to the wider public, the criminal fraternity infiltrates. The Freemasons in particular attract crooks in droves. Remember when Robert Mark stated that his objective was to catch more crooks than he employed? And when members of Royalty are incumbents of the highest offices of these ‘outfits’, the opportunities are ripe and rich. Safunny ol’ whirrll, ennit?

    Personally, I once belonged to the Boy’s Brigade which was ecumenical, the only outfit I ever joined – and ‘Omerta’ forbids me from exposing their ‘Code of Honour’. When I left that, I mysteriously escaped without being whacked, for some reason, though I’ve been looking over my shoulder ever since. Particularly as I was the mace-barer in the band.

    After that, like Groucho Marx I’d never join any club that would have me as a member, until that is (and I almost forgot) in a recent moment of weakness I bunged Nigel’s outfit thirty quid, just to add a bit of mischief to the last European Parliament Elections, on the grounds that I was supporting a saboteur of the whole rotten project. You’ll be relieved to know I’ve now let my ‘Membership’ lapse and am once again a free spirit. Capishe?

  12. Frank P – 15:14

    Quite so! I’m afraid I never joined anything to be able to let my membership lapse, and that includes the human race if you listen to some people that I will not mention.

    Nigel’s (‘n Noa’s) men don’t seem to be making much of a fist of it in the wilder parts of the NW as the photographic evidence that I have provided bears witness. As I have alluded above, Nigel & Co.’s part is this election may only be to keep the charade/mirage of democratic choice on offer look honest.

  13. Frank P – 15:14

    OK, the pfennig has just dropped.

    For the avoidance of doubt I was NOT referring to Frank P or anyone else on this or previous incarnations of the CHW when I wrote the comment below!

    EC – 12:58
    David Ossitt – 10:55
    OK, thanks. I wonder who/where I got that idea from.

  14. EC March 16th, 2015 – 14:01

    If Scott Ott stood for election (again) he’d get my vote!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-X0Tlqv4v4

    I followed this link but then minimised the screen so as to work on a document in word, unbeknown to me the ‘you tube’ carried on to further links until finally I came to a video called “The Amazing Racist”

    I eventually watched at least ten of these, they are very loosely based on the old ‘Candid Camera’ format the principle person doing these videos is a young Jewish man who is taking the micky out of Jews, Muslims, Christians, Blacks, Latinos almost anything you can think of.

    If you are easily offended on your own account or on behalf of any minority Do Not Watch but if you like to see the PC Brigade given a good kicking, have fun.

  15. Peter when I post sometimes my name and email address are shown, at other times I have to type them in, this no problem because on entering the first letter in each case ‘d’ a prompt comes up with two choices for each, in each case the second choice is wrong.

    Any chance that you could clear those two faulty prompts?

  16. David Ossitt – 16:09

    I have no control over these follow on links on YouTube. Best exit the screen after view rather than minimise it. I only came across these follow on links recently and they can be completely random and differ from user to user.

  17. Do any of you have any experience of these ‘Great Train Touring Holidays’?

    I ask because of a number of things first I find drive yourself tour holidays a bit arduous, and second to try to recapture happy times where my employer every year used Page and Moy to arrange and escort us to some wonderful locations round the world.

  18. EC March 16th, 2015 – 16:34

    David Ossitt – 16:09

    “I have no control over these follow on links on YouTube.”

    EC I was not complaining by happenstance I hit on some very funny videos.

  21. …. and remember that that the future of the free world depends on the votes of people who voted for Obama – TWICE!

    And as far as Britain is concerned … are likely to vote in droves for the backstabbing brother and son of a Marxist ‘intellectual’ (code words for ‘traitor’) in May’s elections.

    ‘Democracy’ they calls it! But then … the Bubbles invented it, didn’t they? Whaddaya-x-pect!?

    UDi for East Anglia, anyone? Only a handful of minarets so far. Easily converted back to Rialto cinemas, or just feckin’ bulldozed.

  22. EC (16:05)

    No such inference drawn, me ol’ china, just trying to help with a couple of links. 🙂
    Enjoyed the photo; symbolique, non?

  23. Frank P @ 18:30

    The one implicit set of characteristics the politicians everywhere exhibit is that they are all, no exception here, mendacious, untrustworthy and corruptible. The voting public take the set for granted, assume it goes with the job, pay lip attention to any of the shenanigans flowing from it. Today’s it’s the Clinton woman, tomorrow it will be one of the Republicans who’s barking at her today. If she were to get recorded on a video murdering Monica, or whoever else is there to play the cigar game with her hubby, it wouldn’t damage her chances to be the next President one bit. Voters would just extend the set of characteristics by one, adding the adjective ‘murderous’, Baron reckons.

  24. James Madison (born 16 March 1751)

    “As long as the reason of Man continues fallible,and he is at liberty to exercise it,different opinions will be formed.”

    The Federalist,No10,1787

  26. EC @ 13:43

    The barbarian has now watched few bits of ‘The Prisoner’, three things were quite noticeable – fewer cars on the road, men were still dressing well, and the actors’ diction was by far superior to what one hears on the box today.

  28. Northern League effectively ban building new mosques in Lombardy;from their capital Milan.
    Severed pig’s heads put at the sites of future mosques and islamic schools are becoming common in some European countries.(Breitbart)

    http://bit.ly/1EkbqzJ

  29. ‘Ireland’s Minister of Finance shifted personal wealth out of stocks and into gold…in 2014’
    (h/t Zero Hedge)

  30. @EC 16th, – 13:43

    “It was a complete mystery to others, but thankfully I “go it” on the first screening.”

    Later, when “The Prisoner” started to attract a cult following, it was said of those who’d thought they’d ‘got it’ that they actually hadn’t.
    I just enjoyed the mystery and overall weirdness of it, spoilt by one episode when No.6 tried to do a runner out to sea and seemed to have avoided the great white balloons…Patrick Cargill as No.2 was issuing orders to a radar operator, who was sitting in front of what must have been the crappest radar I ever had the misfortune to sail with, the Marconi “Quo Vadis”.

  32. Ostrich (occasionally) – 23:24

    Ah that’s the problem with those airy fairy cu*tists! There’s only one thing worse than one of them, and that’s one of them that forms an XYZ Society with a committee, constitution, newsletters and AGMs etc.

    Reassuringly, in 1977 in a Canadian TV interview, Patrick McGoohan confirmed wot i ‘ad fort all along…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiIUnCMpGbM

  36. John birch – 06:40

    Pick any european country you like, facts are no defence.
    eg. Austria – Lars Hedegaard, Austria – Elisabeth Sabaditsch-Wolff. Holland Geert Wilders, England – Tommy.

    Great DDR joke, btw.

  37. Frank P – 03:05

    “Aldermaston ladies, dildos at the ready, Your Nation Needs You!”

    😯
    After the Cameroons have cut our army down to zero, and Miliband has abolished Trident at the behest of the SNP, then the sight of the massed ranks of Greenham/Faslane/SWP/SNP Wimmin on the white cliffs of Dover waving their plastic pals in welcome could be our best bet of deterring any annexation.

    Over the last 30 years the Ivans’ women have mastered mid 20th century depilatory techniques. The thought of having to return to underarm tufts, hairy legs and feral growlers is sure to make the pilots of the Tupolev Tu-22Ms turn back! Alternatively, whether overcome by nostalgia or revulsion, they may be tempted to drop their loads!

  39. A perceptive piece highlighting how politicians have broken the link between loyalty and unquestioning help:

    ‘Our Kids’ are ‘Coming Apart’ Because Liberals

    “In the old days the local lord was the economic, political, and cultural lord of all he surveyed. If he accepted the head of a new bondsman and got the benefit of his work and his loyalty, he also took on the cost of feeding that bondsman.”

    http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2015/03/3_15_2015_23_52.html

  41. Cheap responses from cheapskates: The Minister of Health plans to use the surplus of pharmacists to act in place of the shortage of qualified doctors. All the Amins, Amwar and Achmed et al will join Teams of GPs. Nursing Assistants will take the place of qualified nurses. No doubt butchers will sit in for surgeons!

  42. Important medical news- Cheap responses from cheapskates: The Minister of Health plans to use the surplus of pharmacists to act in place of the shortage of qualified doctors. All the Amins, Amwar and Achmed et al will join Teams of GPs. Nursing Assistants will take the place of qualified nurses. No doubt butchers will sit in for surgeons!

  43. “Judges sacked for watching porn” BBC News
    Filthy beasts, they should be hung and garbage thrown at them!

  44. And so it starts, the big truth hidden behind the denial of something that no one has accused him of, I am of course writing about Ed Miliband’s speech in Guisely yesterday, where he said “we will not go into coalition with the SNP, there will be no SNP ministers in my government”.

    Nobody said that there would be.

    Nicola Sturgeon gave the game away in London, almost at the same time as Ed Miliband was speaking in Yorkshire, the we lassie said that she would work with labour, if Labour and the SNP jointly have more votes than the Conservatives she would use the SNP vote to “lock the Tory’s out of government”.

    So his denial was all flim-flam, this lying Marxist would get into bed with the IRA if it got him into number 10.

  45. anne wotana kaye March 17th, 2015 – 14:33 14:34 16:38

    Welcome back, I have missed you.

  46. David Ossitt
    March 17th, 2015 – 16:48
    David, I read all your postings with pleasure. How I wish Verity would return.

  47. “Three judges have been removed and a fourth has resigned following an investigation into an allegation that they viewed pornographic material on office computers.”

    It should be made public that 10% of all publically owned computers will be randomly checked for all of the civil service, local government MP’s etcetera.

    Wiz-bang-wallop-wot-a-picture what’s that on your computer screen?

  49. Verity – Yes, I too miss her crap-cutting vigour and I hope all is well with her.

  52. It blames Major more than Lamont for the ERM debacle, so it does have some connection with reality:
    The Blunders of our Governments by Anthony King and Ivor Crewe – review

    “None of those responsible for the blunders in this book resigned or were sacked, unless you count Norman Lamont, who left the Treasury nine months after the ERM debacle but was less culpable than John Major, who sacked him.”

    http://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/sep/04/blunders-government-king-crewe-review

  53. It’s Bullshit Day on TV in the UK.
    So I clicked into this instead:

    http://alexanderboot.com/content/freedom-vs-privacy-–-speech-delivered-freedom-festival-bournemouth-2015

    A balanced speech delivered in a nice part of the country. Wonder how it was received by those attending the ‘freedom festivities’?

    BTW. Not entirely unconnected – the disproportionate percentage of people consulted in the vox pop chosen by the TV reporters discussing the incipient budget were definitely from those whose obvious ethnicity derived from outside these shores. But we’re getting used to that, aren’t we? Perhaps the largesse of the Fourth Estate (on our behalf) should make us all feel secure and cosy in our ‘inclusiveness’.

  54. The people responsible for the justice dept networks should be sacked. its usual for work computers to have access to dodgy sites blocked unless you can show a business need for them. Why was something like this not in place.
    Government and computers. always useless.

  56. Seems a lot of councils are unfit to run childrens services. Maybe they should become a central government function.

    And why is there an asian network on the BBC. Surely its existance is racist?

  57. Alexsandr – 12:40
    “Seems a lot of councils are unfit to run childrens services. Maybe they should become a central government function.”

    It used to be that when local functions were ‘nationalised’, they became more unwieldy. Then, as ‘nationalised’ functions have ‘gone local’, they lose accountability as few can be bothered to oversee their work as there are so many.

    Lose lose, every time?

    May be local functions, accountable to a national body, but wouldn’t that be a QUANGO?

    When the trojan horse schools were investigated by a ‘security’ and not a ‘schools’ focused group, we got some results. That may be the way to go, just like ex-Army going into the Police Force (and not Service). It doesn’t need many.

  60. Osborne:Tax allowance;£10,800/Minimum wage £6.70p per hour.

    UKIP:No income tax on minimum wage.That’s £6.70p x 40hrs. x 52wks.= £13,936.

  61. huktra – 13:50

    Call Me Dave wants to remain in the EU, either being left on the periphery or being suffocated in the collapsing Eurozone, at whatever the cost, so while Osborne might be a slight improvement over Brown 🙂 , if the destination is wrong, does it matter if the journey is in EU-Business Class?

  63. At least 350 people arrested in protest at ECB HQ in Frankfurt
    “He said the new headquarters for the currency union’s central bank was “a symbol of what Europe can achieve together”.

    “European unity is being strained,” Draghi said, according to an advance text quoted by Reuters. “People are going through very difficult times. There are some, like many of the protesters outside today, who believe the problem is that Europe is doing too little.

    “But the euro area is not a political union of the sort where some countries permanently pay for others.”
    …
    “Our protest is against the ECB, as a member of the troika, that, despite the fact that it is not democratically elected, hinders the work of the Greek government. We want the austerity politics to end,” Ulrich Wilken, one of the organiser told Reuters.

    The Greek finance minister, Yanis Varoufakis, last week criticised ECB policy towards Athens as “asphyxiating“, a criticism also made by the protest organisers.”

    http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/mar/18/anti-capitalist-protesters-clash-police-ecb-frankfurt-hq

    It’s not Europe, it’s the European (Ever Closer) Union, and it’s not doing too much, it is existing, that is too much!

    The protest against the ECB doesn’t sound anti-capitalist, it’s more anti-fascist.

  64. Did you know that the two small lines in the bottom right of this textbox (as I am typing) allows the area to be enlarged, wider and taller? 🙂

  69. Farage’s Balls?
    You mean Miliband’s-if he has any.
    All he could manage was some scare mongering about VAT, which as far as I can see does not need to be contemplated.
    It is all squaring up to be an interesting contest.
    I think Osborne may just have guaranteed a Cameron victory.
    I have to confess that I have gone cold on Farage in the light of his NHS comments in the Telegraph at the weekend. And also the intemperate remarks of Mark Reckless who really could do with keeping his mouth shut.

  70. Farage’s Balls?
    You mean Miliband’s-if he has any.
    All he could manage was some scare mongering about VAT, which as far as I can see does not need to be contemplated.
    It is all squaring up to be an interesting contest.
    I think Osborne may just have guaranteed a Cameron victory.
    I have to confess that I have gone cold on Farage in the light of his NHS comments in the Telegraph at the weekend. And also the intemperate remarks of Mark Reckless who really could do with keeping his mouth shut.

  71. Alexsandr March 18th, 2015 – 12:37

    “At least the BBC were prepared to say the perpetrators were Pakisrtanis.”

    Would they be anything like Pakistanis?

  73. Jennifer Oldham @ 15:26

    If the 1p off a price of beer is enough to give the bunch led by the brainless boy a majority in the House in May, Jennifer, the country’s beyond salvation, we’re all doomed, we might as well pack everything in, buy a pair of slippers, watch life slowly disappear.

  74. I was given the impression that Tunisia was one of the more progressive ME areas:

    ‘This is a black day for Tunisia’: Nation mourns after 22 die in museum terror attack which saw Westerners hunted on cruise ship buses and slaughtered by ‘Islamist’ gunmen
    * Twenty-two people were killed in the attack: 17 tourists, the two gunmen, a museum security officer, a cleaner, and a police officer
    * Two gunmen opened fire in the capital’s Bardo Museum about midday
    * The pair ‘hunted down’ tourists indiscriminately in the shocking attack
    * Another 30 people were held hostage before police raided the building
    * Both attackers and a policeman were killed in the ensuing shootout
    * The dead included nationals from Italy, Poland, Germany and Spain
    * Tunisian PM Habib Essid has warned attackers may have had accomplices
    “Tonight, thousands of people have gathered in the Capital in a show of solidarity against today’s atrocity as world leaders united in their condemnation.
    David Cameron said he was ‘appalled’ by the incident and pledged Britain’s full support, while the Foreign Office said it is ‘urgently’ looking into the attack amid reports Britons may be among the dead.”
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3000614/Tourists-shot-dead-Tunisia-Bardo-Museum.html

    But then, isn’t that why it was chosen?

    It will drive away the tourists, then those with a desire to live combined with some intelligence, and then the cultural enrichers will move onto the next area to cleanse.
    So Cameron is appalled, but what what will he do?

    And all the while the LaberalGreenConDems are looking for monsters!

  75. Baron
    I distinctly heard George describing a bright future
    I think it is time to turn your ire on the result of the election yesterday rather than May
    The warmonger who was elected again is not only a threat to the peace loving Palestinians but his policies prevent moderate Muslims making common cause with the West and particularly the US against ISIL
    *
    Imagine the scene
    Peace in Palestine with 2 strong independent states
    Then Egypt with its strong army free to walk over the fundamentally weak IS ragbag of international fighters
    Remember the International Brigade in Spain once Franco backed by Hitler and Mussolini got into gear

  76. Into the Lubyanka basement with 20:54 Peter! Someone needs a good waterboarding! Peace loving Palestinians!? The ultimate oxymoron; even trumps “moderate Muslims”.

  77. Frank P – 21:41

    ‘extremist muslims’ kill on a whim, while ‘moderate muslims’ finance the activity.

  80. Too much like Rotherham to be a coincidence:
    British girls in Syria face being passed among Islamic State men at a rate of ‘one a week’
    “YOUNG Muslim girls travelling to marry Islamic State militants in Syria are being passed between men at a rate of one husband a week, according to a former jihadist.
    The extraordinary claim from a ex-member of the terror group – responsible for a series of brutal beheadings of Western hostages – comes amid growing concern about the influence of the group on British teenagers.

    The informant claims young girls are forced to marry and sleep with older commanders in marriages that last just seven days, before being divorced and partnered with a new spouse.

    The revelation will raise fresh fears over the fate of the three British schoolgirls, whom authorities fear have travelled to Syria to link-up with the extremists.”
    http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/564552/Islamic-State-British-schoolgirls-Syria-face-marrying-one-husband-week

    A quaint enriching culture returning to its source.

  81. Scurrilous Commentary by Fred Reed
    The Unfortunately Innate Nature of Intelligence

    February 18, 2014
    Due to the fundamental perversity of existence, my email didn’t work for the last two weeks. I hope I didn’t miss anyhting of note.
    Human races are subspecies of Homo sapiens (sic), just as basset hounds and Chihuahuas are subspecies of dog. The breeds of neither are precise genetic categories: In the words of the heroic John Derbyshire, genetically “what you see is a continuum with some pretty sharp clines.” Yet the genetic commonalities are sufficient to be obvious: At a glance one can distinguish between a Japanese and a Norwegian, or a Siberian wolf hound and a dachshund.

    Anyone having experience with dogs knows that these admirable creatures differ in intelligence. Border Collies are simply smarter than pit bulls. Since there is no political penalty for noticing this, it is widely noticed and not disputed. Yet if subspecies of Bowser differ markedly in intelligence, it would seem to follow that subspecies of humans, who differ in color, hair, biochemistry, facial features, brain size and so on, might also differ in intelligence. That is, there is no prima facie biological reason for believing that they cannot. There are many political incentives.

    In the case of Fido, the differences clearly are not cultural, but genetic. If genetic differences in intelligence can exist between subspecies of dogs, why may they not between subspecies of humans?

    People who do not want to believe that such differences exist offer several curious arguments. One is to point out that humans and chimpanzees share 98.2% of their DNA. It then follows that different subspecies of humans share an even higher percentage of their DNA. This is intended to show that humans are therefore essentially identical and that no differences in intellect can exist.

    The obvious reason for the similarity of DNA is that the two share their underlying design: digestive tracts, lungs, muscles, cells, and so on. On similar grounds one could note that a Lamborghini and a dump truck share underlying design and therefore are essentially identical. Wanna race?

    But of course what the shared-DNA observation shows is the contrary of what it is said to show. It demonstrates that very small differences in DNA can produce profoundly different results. It means that a variation of 1.8% causes the difference between Wongobongo the Chimp and Marylyn Monroe. Your dating preferences are your own, but I am not sure the two are quite interchangeable.

    For that matter, the genetic difference between men and women as a percentage is very small. Yet the observant reader will have noticed that this minute difference produces rather impressive differences of structure, thank God, as well as profound biochemical and functional differences. For example, men do not have uteruses, except perhaps in university faculty lounges.

    The genetic differences between such geniuses as Newton, Einstein, Shakespeare, or Hawking, and the guy in the next cubicle are vanishingly small; the effects of these tiny differences are not. A difference of only one amino residue on the beta chain of hemoglobin causes sickle-cell anemia. The genetic difference is infinitesimal, the results catastrophic.

    In short, the notion that small differences in DNA cannot have massive effects is observably wrong.

    Here we should note the dual modes of viewing intelligence, specifically Normal Mode and Racial Mode.

    In Normal Mode, we all know what we mean by intelligence, and we all recognize that people vary greatly in how much of it they have. If John could read classical Greek at age three and graduated in mathematics from CalTech at fifteen, we would all agree that he was bright. If I said at a cocktail party, “Whoa! That gal Therese is smarter than five whips wired in parallel. Anybody got her phone number?” no one would tell me that I was a bigot or that Therese had exactly the same intelligence as everyone else. Rather they would say that I Just knew a good thing when I saw it.

    In Group Mode, everything changes according to the group being discussed. If I said that Jews were smart, and adduced all manner of achievements over the centuries, no one would deny it. Similarly for the Chinese. If I said however that Australian aborigines were inferior in IQ, I would be told as follows: Intelligence does not exist; it is a social construct; it is culturally determined; it can’t be measured; it has no genetic basis; the tests are biased; lack of achievement is caused by discrimination, or institutional racism running through Australian society, or geographic considerations. Whereas if I said that Italians were of low intelligence the response would be to produce counter evidence, in the case of the aborigines it would be to give all manner of reasons why there was no counter evidence.

    It is remarkable how closely the observable behavior of races over the long haul tracks their measured intelligence. Arrange all the visibly distinct groups in descending order of measured IQ. Next to each put its contributions to the arts and sciences; its great civilizations present or past; its mean family income; its rate of criminality; its Nobel prizes and its scores on the GRE, and their representation in demanding universities without affirmative action. Each of the clear disparities can be explained away, yes. E.g., for many centureis Germans were primitive while Italians and Greeks flourished intellectually, and Brazil only recently started designing airliners. Yet the aborigines never did anything. This is not probative, but highly ssuspicious.

    Political and social consequences flow from apparent or, more likely, real differences in intelligence. For example, the Chinese are hated in Indonesia and Malaya, as have been Jews in countless places, because of consistently greater success in things requiring brains (such as making money). (An excellent book on this is World on Fire by Amy Chua.)

    If no such differences in IQ existed, those around the world who produce and pay taxes might reasonably tell their welfare classes to stop being parasites and do their part. If on the other hand some groups are genuinely dim, the problem changes. You cannot blame people for being what they were born, and you cannot expect them to do what they cannot. The social-Darwinist approach—“Scratch, dog, who can, and the devil take the rest”—is cruel. If some cannot function, or find work, in a rapidly automating economy with high endemic unemployment, what do you do? To make matters worse, those who cannot compete intellectually tend to develop a cultural aversion to the whole idea.

    It is when when gradations of intelligence and hence of prosperity correlate closely with visible distinctions—for example, when north Asian students in California swamp Berkeley, greatly out-performing Caucasians—that anger arises. If dull-witted whites live in broken-down trailers in the pine barrens of the South, no one much cares. But if American Indians, racially distinct, live similarly on reservations, it is a political issue. And that is what we face, no matter how hard we pretend otherwise.

  82. And Trevor says the same, at last.

    Immigration • 10 hours ago
    We must listen to Trevor Phillips and his inconvenient truths about race
    Britain is indebted to the former equalities head for highlighting the mess in which multiculturalism has left us all
    By Allison Pearson 7:54 PM GMT 18 March 2015
    If you want to understand the full loopiness and intellectual dishonesty of multiculturalism, just talk to my friend Adam, who lectures in African history.
    “At least that’s progress,” I said to Adam about one notably dysfunctional African country. “Getting more girls into school is progress, isn’t it?”
    “I’m not allowed to use the word ‘progress’,” he said. “I’d be sacked if I called it ‘progress’.”
    “Why?”
    “Because it would imply that the culture that was there already needed improvement.”
    “But it does. If you keep a girl in education, she won’t be married off at 12, which means her chances of getting Aids and dying young are reduced. Her country will become more civilised once it has more educated women. That’s what I call progress.”
    “Obviously, that’s true,” winced the professor, “it’s just not OK to say so.”
    To find inconvenient facts suppressed in one leading university may be regarded as censorship. To have an entire society silenced looks like something worse, and far more sinister.
    • ALLISON PEARSON on ROTHERHAM ‘In the face of such evil, who’s the racist now?’
    Yet that is the picture of the UK drawn by Trevor Phillips in his excoriating Channel 4 documentary, Things We Won’t Say About Race That Are True, to be screened tomorrow night.
    You have to hand it to the former head of the Equalities and Human Rights Commission. It takes guts to tell a story in which your own side, who fancy themselves supremely virtuous, emerge as the baddies.

    Tackling taboos: Nigel Farage with Trevor Phillips in Things We Won’t Say About Race That Are True
    Phillips explains how British people, who dared to express any concern about the rapidly changing face of their country, were shouted down as racist or a bigot. Remember, that’s how Gordon Brown described Labour voter, Gillian Duffy, in 2010. Looking back, Mrs Duffy was rather measured in her complaints, considering the poor woman lived in the once-respectable town of Rotherham, now the child-sex-grooming capital of the Western world, thanks to a group of Pakistani men who make up just 5 per cent of the local population.
    “Campaigners like me sincerely believed that if we could prevent people expressing prejudiced thoughts, they’d stop thinking them,” says Phillips. He now says they were “utterly wrong” – although you could argue that a child who is taught in school not to repeat the old racial slurs his parents used will become less of a hater.
    • OPINION Ten things you actually can’t say about racism
    The trouble is that, even as the Equalities Commission worked hard to prevent racial stereotypes, a troubling proportion of them, as Phillips concedes ruefully, turn out to be accurate. These are statistics laid out by his programme: a third of London pickpockets are Romanian (how Fagin would have loved them!); black people are six times as likely to be jailed for robbery; the Chinese are tops at people-trafficking; when it comes to drug dealing, Afro-Caribbeans are pathetic amateurs compared to the Colombians; meanwhile, white idiots are the national champs of alcohol-fuelled crime.
    Phillips and a Muslim former senior Met officer agreed that the police’s reluctance to use racial profiling arose from an attitude which was basically: “OK, maybe you’d catch more criminals, but they might think we’re a bit racist.”
    Tragically and unforgivably, that same attitude led to the death of eight-year-old Victoria Climbie. Multiple explanations were offered by experts for the child’s 128 separate injuries. Any explanation would do, except the real one, which is that her Ivory Coast guardians were cruel, superstitious brutes. As Phillips admits, pretty much everyone who could have saved Victoria “was walking on eggshells”. Thus, the creed of multiculturalism, which was designed to promote racial equality, caused a little girl to be murdered because white people were too embarrassed to accuse her black torturers. Marvellous, eh?
    • FILM Benedict Cumberbatch was a ‘victim’ of political correctness
    “Like many people faced with inconvenient truths, I thought if I sat on them long enough they’d go away,” says Phillips with a self-knowledge that is rare in our governing classes. Far more typical are the touchy censors who, Phillips reveals, withdrew a timely 2008 film for schools showing a twentysomething South Asian groomer luring white teenage girls into a fancy car and a life of degradation. That was way too realistic, unfortunately, so a second film was made where the groomer was a white teenager. This bore no resemblance to any present danger to any girl ever, but at least it wasn’t offending someone’s culture, except possibly white people. Bad luck, we don’t count.

  83. John birch – 06:42

    “Campaigners like me sincerely believed that if we could prevent people expressing prejudiced thoughts, they’d stop thinking them,” says Phillips.

    I knew, before I went to Primary School, that the OPPOSITE was the case!

    Is it because I was white? Or was it because I grew up in a conventional, Nuclear Family?

    Mind you, no one in my family ever thought the Social Sciences were anything but a waste of time and money, so we had to find things out for ourselves.

  84. From the Daily Telegraph’s “Cynics dictionary” c. 1968:

    Sociology: The study of a group of people who do not need to be studied by a group of people who do.

  86. I wonder if the BBC will show as much interest in the murder of a British woman in Tunisia by Islamists as they have to the “three British schoolgirls” tragedy.

    To ask the question is to answer it.

    There’s a great post about the contrast in the BBC’s lacklustre coverage of 1400 rapes of underage girls in Rotherham and its endless empathy for the 3 birds hot for jihad at:http://john-moloney.blogspot.com/2015/03/liberal-monsters-ii.html

  87. Social science has only two problems: it isn’t science and it isn’t social.

    Indeed it combines the worst aspects of both areas. It takes as a dogma the dispassionate “uncaring” attitude that science needs to be impartial, and throws away the impartial bit and replaces it with a sloppy agenda driven attitude toward data and methodology which is common in society

  88. Peter, when you next talk to Mr. Boot, pass to him the link below, please. It’s put together by the ‘Rain’, the anti-Putin Internet TV station broadcasting from Moscow, Ask him to do a piece on it, or at least comment. It would be of interest what he makes of it, it only partly backs his take on the political m urders.

    The report is entitled ‘Twenty years of political killings, from Listiev to Nemstov. Why don’t they find those who ordered them?’.

    Baron cannot enlighten you in detail himself, he doesn’t know many of the ‘actors’ involved. All the barbarian can tell from you watching the programme is that those who’ve done the killings were thugs (many are behind bars), it’s most of those who ordered the murders who have escaped.

    Only some of the ‘zakazchiki’ (customers) have been caught, most haven’t. According to the Rain reporter Berezovsky, the guy Mr. Boot thinks was dispatched on the orders of Putin, was deeply involved in a number of political murders himself before he fled Russia. The overall impression is that of a widespread corruption of the political class, but it’s hard to see how Putin can politically benefit from it.

    http://tvrain.ru/articles/akt_ubijstva_ot_listeva_do_nemtsova_20_let_politicheskih_ubijstv_v_rossii_pochemu_ne_nahodjat_zakazchikov_reportazh_rodiona_chepelja-383884/

  89. telemachus @ 20:54

    Hard one for the barbarian, telemachus, for the Palestinian unwashed may indeed want nothing but be free to raise camels, drink coffee and live in peace with the Jews, it’s the Palestinian political elites that don’t want any of it, and the former have as much chance turning against the latter today as the German folk had in kicking the Adolf’s lot out in the 30s last century.

    You back Baron in his campaign to extinguish the Hamas, Hezbollah thugs (and their rich neighbouring backers), he’ll back you raging and campaigning against Bibi, who is but a reaction to the ‘kill-all-the-Jews’ lot.

    A deal?

  90. telemachus @ 20:54

    And another thing, telemachus:

    What makes you think the 2 state solution would end hostilities towards Israel? It won’t. The only lasting solution to the ME wart has nothing to do with the Palestinians getting their own sovereign state with the current Palestinian leadership still in charge, it would only make the survival of Israel that much harder, the hatred injected for decades into the hearts of the Palestinian unwashed will not go away with the creation of a Palestinian entity, it will only end with the de-throning of the forces that have been spewing the hatred of the Jews for decades, (if not longer).

    Why cannot you, a well educated, intelligent and smart guy, figure it?

  91. Baron
    Your comments are sage
    telemachus detests Hamas and regards Khaled Mashal as only one up from Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi

    *
    But
    But
    An agreement is an agreement

    “The reconciliation agreement between the two major Palestinian factions, Fatah and Hamas, which was signed in Gaza on Wednesday, is based on a two-state solution and recognizes the State of Israel, senior Fatah official Jibril Rajoub said on Thursday.

    “The reconciliation that we achieved will be implemented according to the program of Abu Mazen [Palestinian President Mahmuod Abbas] which recognizes the state of Israel,” Rajoub said, in an interview with Army Radio’s Good Morning Israel program.

    He added that the two-state solution envisages “a Palestinian state in the 1967 borders and the state of Israel with its capital in West Jerusalem.” Hamas leader Ismail Haniya “is obliged to uphold Abu Mazen’s policy,” Rajoub stressed. ”

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.587047

    *

    Why will Netanyahu not exhibit the same willingness?

  92. Frank P @ 00:14

    The guy is unbelievably good, one can be forgiven thinking he ain’t real human, the construction of his arguments, the phrasing, the flow – outstanding, exquisite and unrivalled. One question still remains though. Will it change anything?

    Baron has said it many times before: The Western political elites have perfected a system of governance that enables them to govern without any consideration of the voting public. It’s akin to the boffins of the now defunct East European dictatorships – they would say a blatant lie, do wrong, the people knew it was a lie, a wrong, the boffins knew the people knew. Often, the people were asked to repeat the lie, be complicit in it, endorse the wrong, applaud it, work to implement it.

    A construct like this may last, but it cannot last forever, it has to implode.

  93. telemachus @ 17:41

    Baron reckons, telemachus, Bibi doesn’t exhibit the same willingness (the Israeli unwashed don’t either, hence the vote) because he (and they) rightly think it’s not words but deeds that matter.

  94. A White Demise
    Golden Geese, and All That
    September 9, 2012
    I begin to weary of the endless denunciations of “white privilege;” the calls to end the dominance of malignant white men; the law suits to abolish all tests on which white men excel, meaning almost any test of mental ability; to make universities and police forces and advanced-placement classes “look like America.” Often appended is the observation that by 2050 the majority of Americans will no longer be white. Invariably this is presented as a merited comeuppance and a laudable democratization.

    Really? No doubt all of this is rousing good fun for the affirmative-action classes (which is what we mean by “minorities,” not successful minorities such as men, Chinese, Jews, or geeks.) Yet perhaps we should be wary, all of us, about this much-sought dermal twilight, about abandoning standards of merit in favor of political appointment.

    The beginning of wisdom might be to note the utter dependence of the US on white men—men, guys, hombres—who have contributed virtually everything that keeps the affirmative-action classes from living in grass huts. A few examples: (from an ancient column):

    Euclidean geometry. Parabolic geometry. Hyperbolic geometry. Projective geometry. Differential geometry. Algebra. Limits, continuity, differentiation, integration. Physical chemistry. Organic chemistry. Biochemistry. Classical mechanics. The indeterminacy principle. The wave equation. The Parthenon. The Anabasis. Air conditioning. Number theory. Romanesque architecture. Gothic architecture. Information theory. Entropy. Enthalpy. Almost every symphony ever written. Pierre Auguste Renoir. The twelve-tone scale. The mathematics behind it, twelfth root of two and all that. S-p hybrid bonding orbitals. The Bohr-Sommerfeld atom. The purine-pyrimidine structure of the DNA ladder. Single-sideband radio. All other radio. Dentistry. The internal-combustion engine. Turbojets. Turbofans. Doppler beam-sharpening. Penicillin. Airplanes. Surgery. The mammogram. The Pill. The condom. Polio vaccine. The integrated circuit. The computer. Football. Computational fluid dynamics. Tensors. The Constitution. Euripides, Sophocles, Aristophanes, Aeschylus, Homer, Hesiod. Glass. Rubber. Nylon. Roads. Buildings. Elvis. Acetylcholinesterase inhibitors. (OK, those are nerve agents, and maybe we didn’t really need them.) Silicone. The automobile. Really weird stuff, like clathrates, Buckyballs, and rotaxanes. The Bible. Bug spray. Diffie-Hellman, public-key cryptography, and RSA. Et cetera.

    Like it or not, there it is. White men can do these things, have done them, and continue to do them. The evidence shows that all the groups receiving affirmative action have not done them and, by all appearances, cannot—which is why they need affirmative action. Any who have the ability should have the opportunity, yes. (Bright idea: Why don’t we do things without regard to race, creed, color, sex, or national origin? Naw, never fly.) History suggests that there will be few.

    Of course, most of the minorities who benefit from these things have never heard of half of them. (In the ‘hood: “Hey man, cool cell. I guess you’re into code-division multiple access.”)

    The pattern of white men doing difficult things continues. Consider the founders of companies in information technology (also from an earlier column):

    Google (Sergei Bryn, Larry Page), Intel (Gordon Moore, Robert Noyce), Apple (Steve Jobs, Steve Wozniak), Microsoft (Bill Gates), Dell Computer (Michael Dell), Facebook (Mark Zuckerberg), YouTube (Chad Hurley, Steve Chen, Jawed Karim), Netscape (Mark Andreesen), Yahoo (Jerry Yang, David Filo), AMD (long list of guys from Fairchild Semiconductor), Twitter (Jack Dorsey), Wikipedia (Jimmy Wales, Larry Sanger), Unz.org (Ron Unz), PayPal (Peter Thiel), Ebay (Pierre Omidyar).

    Not quite all white, but nearly so. All are men.

    For that matter, anyone who watched the landing of Curiosity, the latest Mars rover, both Curiosity and the landing being astonishing demonstrations of engineering virtuosity, will have noticed that Mission Control consisted overwhelmingly of: White. Men.

    I say all of this partly in exasperation at the endless ankle-biting from affirmative-action minorities. If I were rude, which I emphatically am not, I would say, “Invent your own goddam iPods.” Yet the question is profoundly practical. The prosperity of America, its international competitiveness, depends very heavily on white men. Which means on a steadily diminishing proportion of the population.

    Maybe this isn’t cause for celebration.

    If America were the only country on the planet, as many Americans seem to
    think it is, then affirmative action might be a supportable inefficiency, something like a golf handicap. But America is not the only country. Japan, China, and South Korea among others are full of smart, industrious, and ambitious people who are absolutely able to compete against the US. They are not going to cut us any slack. Their percentages of high-end talent are not falling. They don’t do heartwarming social policy.

    Yes, yes, I know. I will get stupid mail from stupider people saying that I am a white supremacist. No. I am a brain supremacist. If the entire faculty of Harvard came to consist of Jewish Koreans from Mumbai, I would be perfectly content, assuming they got there on merit. Or even if they came from New Jersey.

    In pondering the coming unwhite America, it might be wise to consider how democracy will then work. In America we are accustomed to a rough balance of contending factions—liberals, conservatives, women, men, blacks, Hispanics, feminists, hawks, doves, and so on. Values overlap, emphases change. Elections are often determined by a few percentage points. Any group potentially can influence the outcome, so politicians have to pay attention to the desires of all groups.

    By contrast, if the electorate consists of two self-aware groups with utterly incompatible wishes, the smaller group is simply excluded from power. In South Africa, for example, whites have no hope for national office.

    Note that blacks and whites indeed have such sharply differing values. Further, blacks do not like whites. They are quite as willing to impose their rule on whites as white once were to impose their rule on blacks. Consider the following survey, from The Pew Research Center:

    “Most notably, 62% of blacks say ‘we should make every possible effort to improve the position of blacks and other minorities, even if it means giving them preferential treatment.’ Just 22% of whites agree.
    When it comes to the social safety net, 78% of blacks today say ‘the government should guarantee every citizen enough to eat and a place to sleep.’”

    The idea that the government—which means white taxpayers—should provide everything suggests a great dimness of mind and poor grasp of the origin of specie. The belief apparently is that money comes from the government, as food comes from Safeway and cell phones from Radio Shack. A constantly dwindling number of whites at the mercy of a predatory welfare class can’t and won’t carry the rest of the population. If (or as) things get worse for them, they will simply flee the country.

    The crucial question for an unwhite America is what Hispanics will do—whether they will assimilate to white values or expect to be cared for by the government. They now make up 17% of the population versus 13% for blacks, and their numbers rise faster. Should they bloc-vote with blacks, the two will be able to demand anything at all and get it.

    And that, in a competitive world, will be that.

  95. From what little I saw of it and from what I have since read George Osborn presented a remarkable ‘budget’ speech, made all the more special by the limp-wristed reply from Ed the Marxist Miliband.

    Dare we hope for a majority?

  96. As I was saying:
    Stable state is obvious target
    “For terrorists determined to halt the establishment of democracy anywhere in the Arab world, Tunisia is an obvious target. The first country to throw out a dictator at the start of the Arab Spring, it is now relatively stable and prosperous, with moderate Islamists having accepted defeat in parliamentary and presidential elections.
    The murderous attack in the heart of Tunis is a signal that extremists are determined to wreck one of the few beacons of stability in North Africa, and send a warning that western tourists are not safe anywhere in the region.”
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/africa/article4386309.ece

  97. RobertC@March 19th, 2015 – 19:53

    Why does anyone go to an Islam country for their holidays? Just seems too dangerous to me. Plenty of nice places outside the caliphate in Europe.
    Nice and cheap in the eurozone too.

  98. Alexsandr – 20:08

    I suppose it is to see the remains of the cultures, from pre-1400 AD, as they are being demolished according to the written instructions.

    I am amazed just how oblivious to dangers people are. They must think that being in a Western style hotel protects them.

  99. DM: Pianist aboard Tunisia cruise ship was ALSO on board the Costa Concordia when it sank in 2012

    Is he unlucky, or lucky? 🙂

  101. RobertC @ 22:27

    This is not to advocate a holiday in the lands of the followers of Allah, but if one were to take the number of people holidaying in Tunisia and that of those killed there by extremists and compare it to the number of people holidaying in the (say) the US and that of those killed on the American roads the latter destination may be the more dangerous one.

    Having said that Baron would urge everyone looking for a holiday to visit East Anglia, still a place where old England survives, be it in pockets here and there.

  103. Baron – 22:36
    Most people who go to the US, and want to continue living, take the trouble to minimise the risk, so they keep out of trouble. If they die parachuting, then tough, if they get killed in the middle of burgling a house, tough, but how many get shot when driving?

    No, don’t tell me! 🙂 I can guess 🙁

  104. We have just switched off Question Time, the BBC is showing that it doesn’t show no favour to any political opinion by having a panel four socialists to one Tory, the bastards.

  105. Can we, so as not to be enticed into using the language of the dissemblers on this blog, ban the word ‘Islamists’ and replace it with the phrase ‘Mohammedan savages’. Giving this cult an ‘ism’ tends to elevating its status.

  106. Tim Montgomerie in the Times:

    “Crosby’s political recipe might be enough to beat Ed Miliband. It’s not enough to build a Conservative party that deserves to win elections or to stop the decline of faith in our political system.”
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11483226/If-David-Cameron-wins-on-Lynton-Crosbys-ticket-it-will-be-open-season-on-all-the-old-Tory-values.html

    But CMD doesn’t want a Conservative Party!

  108. Federal Government of USA readies to invade Texas:

    Off-Military Base (i.e. in your backyard) Special Operations Command ‘exercise’ JADE HELM from July-September 2015:

    https://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/258605525?access_key=key-dS1ZhJJ4ZgCH6XXhBqWp&allow_share=true&escape=false&view_mode=scroll

    This story of the Special Forces PSYOP (and preparation for what…?) designating Utah and Texas as “hostile” was broken as an impromptu item on the Alex Jones Show on March 19th and almost immediately picked up by Drudge Report. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3FbTbAyIcE

    Enough of the suggestions which were seen occasionally last year that Infowars.com and the AJ Show is not a news organisation!

    *

    William Binney, the former Technical Director of the National Security Agency (NSA), appeared in the final hour of Mr. Jones’s Show on March 18:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RUIJuil6Oc

    Enough of the suggestions which appeared last year on this site that the NSA is primarily engaged in “defence of the realm” activities!

    Alex Jones’s broadcasts are now essential viewing.

  113. Robert C

    ”
    “When the law is misguided, when it oppresses the people and removes their freedoms, can we respect it? I am not really posing the question. I’m giving you the answer. It ain’t going to happen
    ”
    There is a great fear that our system of Government which in essence is a dictatorship of the Cabinet through Parliament
    And some say dictatorship of the Prime Minister by dint of the power of patronage
    A fear that this system will allow a rightist government to repress those sections of the population that do not conform to that right wing orthodoxy
    *
    McCluskey is only articulating what many are saying down the pub

    And perversely what Farage is saying

  114. telemachus, you should be more worried about those who will not conform to your pervasive and pernicious left wing orthodoxy.

    A great storm of dissent is coming your way. Clarkson and Farage are merely the outriders.

  115. RobertC @ 18:58

    What the great Mark fails to comprehend, Robert, is that the half Muslim messiah would like to repeat in Israel what he did in Kiev in February last year – dispatch a Nuland mutant, who would hire a bunch of armed thugs, chase Netanyahu and the newly elected parliamentarians out of office, then appoint his own cronies to run Israel, who would give in to the enemies of Israel, ultimately destroying the only democracy in the ME, thus enabling the IS murderers to gain more territory.

  118. To keep you updated on things Ukrainian the BBC won’t touch:

    A serious fracas today between Poroshenko (the Ukrainian President) and one of the richest Ukrainian oligarchs called Kolomoiysky (further just Kolo), both strongly pro-Western, both full of hate of each other.

    Following an enactment of a new law, Poroshenko appointed a new head of an important company that runs the all important oil/gas pipelines through Ukraine, and in which Kolo has a 40% stake, (hence not a full control). Until now, Kolo has been paying $5mn a months to other big shareholders who, in turn, have allowed him to run the outfit.

    When the newly appointed head reached the company HQ, the old one barricaded himself in the office, called Kolo, who arrived promptly with his own armed bodyguards, broke few windows, smashed some furniture, kicked the new head out.

    The latest: ‘Nobody knows who own the company’, says in a statement the Ukrainian Ministry ‘in charge’. The switch in leadership is significant not only because who controls the company controls both the Ukrainian and the European energy supplies, but also because the company has financed the volunteers in the Dniepr battalion fighting the rebels in East Ukraine. A pundit invited by the TV station ‘Rain’ (the story here comes from the young crew at the station) said ‘it’s a move by Poroshenko to get the ultra right elements in the armed forces (the Right Sector) under control’.

    The whole affair (it isn’t over yet) shows well how business is done in the corruption free, transparent and democratic Ukraine. Baron expect Nuland to travel to Kiev soon to sort things out.

  121. Sorry about these long posts, but I find Fred reed a breath of fresh air on so many subjects.
    Fredoneverything.

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    The Pursuit of Racial Amity
    by Fred Reed

    January 07, 2014

    Share on emailShare on printMultiple Pages
    The Pursuit of Racial Amity
    photo credit: Shutterstock
    Pondering the smoking ruins of American racial policy, I wonder whether it isn’t time to say publicly what many, if not most, of both races know: It isn’t working. It isn’t going to work. If it were, it would have. If it were working, we would not need the unending laws to force the races together when they don’t want to be together. If people wanted diversity, it would happen without compulsion.

    The hope that black and white would mingle amicably if only segregation were dismantled relied on a peculiarly American inattention to life and history and on a belief that people will behave as we want them to instead of how they observably behave. Human nature remains human nature, no matter how hard one holds one’s breath and turns blue.

    It is not an easy thing that we try to do. Frequently, far smaller disparities than those between black and white lead to bloody conflict. Catholics and Protestants, Shia and Sunni, Jew and Christian are often virtually indistinguishable, yet they share a history of internecine butchery of each other. Is there anywhere an example of two groups so large and utterly different as blacks and whites successfully merging?

    Despite our best imaginings, race is far more than skin deep. The races differ wildly in culture, appearance, attitudes, views of each other, language, musical taste, dress, attitudes toward law, education, family, and the role of government.

    Much of what blacks believe about whites is almost psychotic. There are exceptions and degrees, yes, but the centerline remains.

    “Maybe a little less togetherness would better preserve the peace.”
    Over and over one hears blacks asserting that we whites invented AIDS to kill off blacks, that we put substances in soft drinks to make black men impotent (“Honest, Latanya, them damn white folks put something in my Gatorade.”), and that we flood the ghetto with drugs to destroy black society. We are, blacks repeatedly insist, incorrigible racists determined to hold blacks down. Discrimination, “racial profiling,” police brutality, and “institutional racism” are, they say, the irremediable bedrock of the white soul. The Trayvon Martin case, blacks say, shows that it is open season for whites to kill young black males. Black after black says the only solution is to kill whites.

    By contrast, over the last sixty years many whites have seen a desperate attempt to find something—anything—that would raise blacks to the intellectual, cultural, and economic standards of the First World. Nine white men passed Brown v. Board of Education. White federal marshals and white troops enforced the decision. An overwhelmingly white Congress enacted the Civil Rights Acts of the 1960s and still supports the endless welfare programs on which so many blacks depend. We censor ourselves savagely to avoid offending blacks. Even mild criticism of racial behavior is a firing offense.

    Nothing is enough. We change the color of Santa, remove the Confederate flag, admit blacks to historically white schools for which they are not remotely qualified, and pay untold millions to settle discrimination suits based on blacks’ inability to meet the standards applied to whites. It doesn’t work. The complaints never end.

    We have tried desegregation, integration, mixed classrooms, Section Eight, AFDC, Head Start, affirmative action, quotas, Black History Day (or is it Month?), laws against “hate crimes” by whites, outlawing of IQ tests by employers, on and on. It hasn’t worked. Nothing suggests that it will. The chasm appears to be intractable.

    What if it isn’t working because it can’t? What do we do?

    Note that our racial policy is in a sense anti-black. It is aimed at making blacks into dark-skinned whites who study, talk, act, and think like us—to get them to speak white English, wear suits, and adopt the cultural norms of whites.

    Yet there is little evidence that blacks want to turn white. In fact they do much that is intended to maintain, or at any rate has the effect of maintaining, their separateness. Thus Keyshawn and Latoya instead of Robert and Carol. Thus Ebonics: Blacks could learn normal English if they chose, if only by imitating whites on television, but that would make them almost white. (In France and Mexico, for example, blacks speak the national language normally.) Black high-schoolers accuse their fellows who study of “acting white.” Blacks speak contemptuously of Oreos and Uncle Toms.

    Whites have no more desire to be black than blacks do to be white. This attachment of each race to its culture makes assimilation impossible.

    Things can seem to be working better than they are. Most whites see only bleached blacks, those in business clothes speaking perfect English on television. Few see the huge black urban ghettos, hermetically isolated from the rest of the country. You can spend eight hours in these regions in a police car—I have, many times—and never see a Caucasian face. The ghettos amount to a different country, a different civilization, in distributed enclaves. Assimilation before the heat death of the sun isn’t going to happen.

    If you look at what people do instead of what they say, you will note that the races do not want to associate and indeed don’t much like each other. In Washington, DC, where I lived for many years, the races coexisted in compulsory amity at work but then went to separate neighborhoods, bars, and restaurants. When blacks wearied of the (black, actually) violence of the city, they moved to Prince George’s County in Maryland, heavily black; whites went to Fairfax County, Virginia, almost all white. Black kids in white universities want black-only fraternities and living quarters. When whites threaten by gentrification to become a majority in black regions such as Washington itself, blacks hate it.

    And now we have the Knockout Game of explicitly racial attacks by gangs of blacks, often leaving the victims crippled or dead. The media hide the occurrence of these assaults, the police (who know better) deny that they are racial, and the federal government deliberately does nothing. This is a dangerous game. It is interesting that a sober, conservative black intellectual such as Thomas Sowell sees a race war looming—his words, and worth reading. See also Walter Williams.

    Maybe a little less togetherness would better preserve the peace. The Supreme Court once said irrationally that “separate educational facilities are inherently unequal.” Why? Men and women have separate public bathrooms. Is this unequal? We have sports teams separated by sex. Inherently unequal? Should we force sexual integration of sports? Jews and Catholics have schools intended to preserve their cultures, and it doesn’t seem to have brought the Republic down.

    So then why do we keep trying to compel a togetherheid that no one seems to want? Why not let the races manage their own affairs as they see fit? For instance, we might organize the schools by culture instead of race. As a white man, I want my children to go to a culturally white school, meaning one that stresses real academics, requires good English and what I regard as civilized dress, and demands good comportment. No social promotion, affirmative action, or toleration of seriously bad behavior. Black students that chose to meet these standards would be welcome—but they would have to meet them.

    This would result in something close to de facto segregation by race. So what? It would also end complaints by blacks of discrimination in grades, discipline, and so on, since they would be running their own schools, and whites would no longer complain of the dumbing down of courses and the inability to maintain their standards of language and behavior. If by law all schools received the same funding, none would be at a disadvantage.

    It is worth a thought, methinks: comity at arm’s length. What we are doing isn’t working. Violence grows. Sooner or later there will be an explosion, and, perhaps, a conflict from which the country will never recover.

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  122. Sorry Peter, didn’t mean to send all the above and below the article.
    Trim it if you can.

  123. John Birch 0630

    There are some very interesting comments to these ISIL posts

    viz

    “If my daughter were to tell me that she was bringing a Swedish boy home for dinner, I would half expect a brown eyed head chopper with a poor IQ, and who looked like an uglier version of Don Corleone, rather than a blue eyed blonde that resembled Bjorn Borg.

    The real secret is that Europe is destined to become the next caliphate, and happenings in Iraq and Syria are just a diversionary tactic.”

    There is no chance of this
    We, the white Christians hold the levers and always will
    We have to live with our 2.7 million Muslims
    Mainstream Muslim opinion hates ISIL as much as we do
    Just look at events in Yemen where ISIL is now killing Al Qaeda supporters and Iranian backed Shias
    ISIL will be crushed by their brothers

  124. John birch @ 06:57

    Superb l inks, John, thanks.

    The piece on racial equality isn’t really arguing for a apartheid style separation, but one based on natural abilities, tastes, traits and whatever. It’s amazing the vast majority of whites have no problema at all with black footballers, back them, admire even worship them when they excel at the game. Some remain racists, but then that’s life, and one cannot re-engineer life, not yet anyway, and thanks be to Him for it (or the absence of it?)

  125. Tellytubby @ 8
    Ok muslims are a minority now but with more innigration and a high birthrate (paid for by us through the benefits system) they will quickly get to a far higher percentage.
    And they know how to work our systems so their influence will be great quickly.

  126. Mor hypocrisy from stinking Labour as it is revealed that their biggest donor to the tune of £600,000 is a hedge fund manager.

    Two faced lying bastards.

  127. They certainly do need to do some thinking:

    Muslims need to face up to the violence of the Koran

    Jesus says love your enemies. Where is Islam’s restraint?

    “On New Year’s Day, President al-Sisi of Egypt made a remarkable speech. How, he asked, could belief in Islam make Muslim nations a “source of anxiety, danger, killing and destruction”?
    “Is it possible”, he added, “that 1.6 billion people should want to kill the rest of the world’s inhabitants — that is seven billion — so that they themselves may live?” He was asking where the mechanism of restraining Islamic violence lay.
    But this heroic intervention has not sparked a worldwide theological debate among Muslims. The only perceivable response was the slaughter of 21 Egyptian Copts by Isis in Libya.”

    (£) http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/columnists/article4388885.ece

    As do the liberals and the left.

  128. The translation of the letter that ran today in Tempi:

    Dear Dolce & Gabbana- a letter of support from children of gays and lesbians

    “Dear Dolce and Gabbana,

    Greetings from the United States. The six signers of this letter were all raised by gay and lesbian parents. Five of us are women and one is a queer man, though we all raised our children with their opposite-sex parents. We want to thank you for giving voice to something that we learned by experience: Every human being has a mother and a father, and to cut either from a child’s life is to rob the child of dignity, humanity, and equality.

    We know that gay parents can be loving, since we loved our parents and they loved us. Nonetheless, we have all had firsthand experience with the harsh backlash that follows when the dominant view of “gay parenting” as universally positive is questioned. We know that you will come under tremendous pressure, especially now when both Italy and the United States are being pushed to override our concerns for our rights to a mom and dad, in order to please a powerful gay lobby.

    Nobody receives more vicious attacks from the lobby than those who come from the gay community and question its policies: children of gay couples just as much as the gay men who defend them (like the two of you). In all likelihood many in the international community will try to get your shows cancelled, your advertisements censored, and your reputation destroyed online. You have shown yourselves to be extremely brave. You have given us great inspiration as all six of us prepare to submit letters to the US Supreme Court against gay marriage.

    We want to praise your courage and thank you for your inspiration. We also implore you not to surrender when the backlash grows in intensity. If you back down from what you said and apologize, it will leave the children of gay homes even more vulnerable and discredited. It is important for our sake, for the sake of Italian children as well, that you not apologize or capitulate. Please support the idea that all children need to be bonded with their mothers and fathers. It is a human right.

    If we can help you in any way, please, let us know. We are not all Christian but we want to send you our blessings, and we promise that we will be lifelong buyers of Dolce and Gabbana from now on.

    Heather Barwick, contributor to Federalist

    Rivka Edelman, co-author of Jephthah’s Daughters: Innocent Casualties in the War for Family Equality

    Katy Faust, writer at asktheBigot

    Robert Oscar Lopez, co-author of Jephthah’s Daughters: Innocent Casualties in the War for Family Equality

    Denise Shick, author of My Daddy’s Secret

    Dawn Stefanowicz, author of Fuori Dal Buio: La Mia Vita Con Un Padre Gay

    This letter is in response to Dolce& Gabbana statement that “The only family is the traditional one.” “The family is not a fad,” Gabbana told the interviewer. “In it there is a supernatural sense of belonging.” Procreation “must be an act of love.” Children born through artificial insemination or egg donors are “children of chemistry, synthetic children. Uteruses for rent, semen chosen from a catalog,” Dolce said.

    I cannot imagine why these two men would invite such wrath, except that they see the injustice done to children when they are denied one of their parents, and they can’t sit silently by while it is celebrated.”

    http://askthebigot.com/2015/03/16/dear-dolce-gabbana-a-letter-of-support-from-children-of-gays-and-lesbians/

  129. Colonel Mustard @ 12:11

    Colonel, the members of the higher echelons of the mainstream political parties have a common middle name – Hypocrite. What we’re learning about them from the MSM is but a fraction of the tip of an iceberg.

    Hopefully, May could be the start of a clean up of the Aegean stables, and a thorough one, too. We should go back selecting our representatives following the recipe of the North Caroline burghers after the Republic was set-up – no lawyers, no preachers, and no teachers (substitute PR men for preachers), we need ordinary people who have a calling, want to do well for the country, not a bunch of professional shysters who have but one aim after they get into the House – enriching themselves.

  130. RobertC @ 14:12

    The letter echoes exactly Baron’s main concern, Robert, it’s the killer point in all the equality yapping for gay equality – what about the kids raised by them when they grow up, like not they didn’t have natural parents. Who bats for the kids today? Nobody, it’s the ever powerful gay lobby that gets what it wants. Criminal this.

  131. When you say, telemachus, ‘mainstream Muslim opinion hates ISIL as much as we do’ you mean ‘mainstream Muslims hate ISIL as much as we do’, right?

    Well, two things wrong with it. First, you have no evidence for it, even if every Muslims were to say ‘I hate ISIL’ you should never take their word for it, words are words cost nothing, it’s the deeds that count. Do you see many deeds that would convince?

    The other thing is this, most of the Muslims identify as Muslim first, British second. If push came to shove where does it leave the rest of us?

  133. Why all this worry about pension pots (piss pots?) annuities etc. To be really comfortable in old age and be without debts, simply do what our home-grown low lives have learned from non native Britishers. Don’t work, live off benefits, receive housing, health insurance, rates, water and other utility bills, in fact everything paid for by the stupid hard working tax payers. All will be taken care of, so just sit back, open another can of beer and guzzle your burger (or kabub), give a loud burp and take it easy!

  134. Baron – 16:43
    Remember, their enemy’s enemy is not their friend, just another enemy.

  135. Baron – 16:17
    The important thing is that these children are speaking up and their voices are being heard.

    It also highlights the strength of the gay lobby.

  137. anne wotana kaye
    March 21st, 2015 – 21:06

    To which the following footnote:

    “For over 30 years, sovereign nations, particularly in the West have been buying votes by offering social payments in the form of welfare, Medicare, social security, and the like.

    The ridiculousness of this should not be lost on anyone. Politicians, in order to be elected, promise to allocate taxpayer funds on social programs that will benefit said taxpayers down the road (we’re simply talking about social spending, not infrastructure or other costs.

    The concept that taxpayers might simply just keep the money to begin with never enters the equation. And because everyone believes that they are somehow spending someone else’s money, they play along.

    When you believe that you are spending someone else’s money, it’s very easy to write a blank check, which is precisely what Western nations have been doing for years, promising everyone a safe and secure retirement without ever bothering to see where the money would come from.

    When actual bills came due to fund this stuff, Governments quickly discovered that current tax revenues couldn’t cover it… so they issued sovereign debt to make up the difference….”…

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-03-21/how-governments-worked-banks-create-555-trillion-interest-rate-bubble

  138. telemachus @ 18:38

    An admirable stance, telemachus, yet one cannot help feeling they oppose it because ISIL presents an existential challenge to the Iraqi polity, hence their status within it. It would be more convincing if ay of the mullahs here who preach at the Friday’s prayers were to issue a fatwa on anyone supporting the ISIL thugs, e.g. the three girls who left for Syria, others who may support them.

  139. telemachus @ 18:38

    Also, what do you make of Robert’s point @ 21.18. From the evidence so far, his is a valid point.

  140. Baron 0043

    France adequately gives the lie to this
    They are and remain an enemy but following the Franco Prussian war we progressively made common cause leading to the temporary checking of the German threat in 1918 and the final defeat of Germany in 1945

    The next invader

    “Prussia’s shattering defeat of France in 1870 did not mean the end of invasion fear in Britain. As the traditional enemy against which massive new defences had been constructed during the 1860s, France had been removed as a threat but the manner of its removal caused new fears. Revealed as efficient, militaristic, ruthless and ambitious for world power and territory, Germany was now seen by Britain as the potential new enemy – the next invader. This new fear was expressed in an unusual form as the polemical invasion novel and the (usually jingoistic) popular magazine or newspaper”

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/britain_wwone/invasion_ww1_01.shtml

    Without France the German Navy would have rued the waves and we would have lost our empire long before we did

  141. Telemachus @0552

    We lost (actually walked away) from our empire as a quid pro quo from the US for their joining WW2.
    Thats why we dismantled it with obscene haste leaving countries not yet ready for independance.
    And allowing the partition of india, and the resulting exodous in 1948.
    OK the empire could not have lasted but taking more time to make the transition would have been beneficial. I suspect we are reaping the disbenefits of that today.
    Of course the US is 2 faced about this. They have replaced our empire with a US business empire with US firms taking over commerce worldwide. And imposing US law well outside US territory. Look at the Sabane Oxley regulations for example.

  142. Alexandr 0635

    According to American Right superhero Ron Paul Sarbanes Oxley (SOX) acts to our commercial advantage

    “In an April 14, 2005 speech before the U.S. House of Representatives, Paul stated, “These regulations are damaging American capital markets by providing an incentive for small US firms and foreign firms to deregister from US stock exchanges. According to a study by a researcher at the Wharton Business School, the number of American companies deregistering from public stock exchanges nearly tripled during the year after Sarbanes–Oxley became law, while the New York Stock Exchange had only 10 new foreign listings in all of 2004. The reluctance of small businesses and foreign firms to register on American stock exchanges is easily understood when one considers the costs Sarbanes–Oxley imposes on businesses. According to a survey by Korn/Ferry International, Sarbanes–Oxley cost Fortune 500 companies an average of $5.1 million in compliance expenses in 2004, while a study by the law firm of Foley and Lardner found the Act increased costs associated with being a publicly held company by 130 percent.” “

  143. Well pasted tellytubby. Did you actually read it? Especially the ladt bit about compliance costs?

  144. Tories in trouble in dudley north.
    Beeb reporting some dodgy stuff with the EDL.
    Could this mean a chance for the kippers?

  145. Ah yes, the curious antipathy of the Americans for our Empire. Those same Americans who still colonise Hawaii but disguise the fact by calling it a State and who made a good fist of colonising the Philippines before the war and Japan afterwards.

    Cutting and pasting the BBC on history is like sitting in the mess ante-room reading the Beano.

  146. Muslim rape gangs just living by their rules.

    Quran 16:76 Allah sets forth (another) Parable of two men: one of them dumb, with no power of any sort; a wearisome burden is he to his master; whichever way he directs him, he brings no good: is such a man equal with one who commands Justice, and is on a Straight Way?

    Allah warns the believers against taking the slaves as equal partner in status and in sharing their wealth, lest they have to fear them as anyone else:

    Quran 30:28…do ye have partners among those whom your right hands possess (i.e., slaves, captives) to share as equals in the wealth We have bestowed on you? Do ye fear them as ye fear each other?

    Allah recognizes some human beings, namely the masters, as more blessed by Himself than the less favored slaves as part of His divine plan. He warns Muslims against sharing His gifts to them equally with their slaves. Those who would take slaves as equal, warns Allah, would deny Him:

    Quran 16:71 Allah has bestowed His gifts of sustenance more freely on some of you than on others: those more favoured are not going to throw back their gifts to those whom their right hands possess, so as to be equal in that respect. Will they then deny the favours of Allah?

    Allah does not only sanction the institution of slavery, He also gave divine blessing to masters (Muslim men only can own slaves) to have sex with the female slaves:

    Quran 70:29–30 And those who guard their private parts, Except in the case of their wives or those whom their right hands possess—for these surely are not to be blamed

    Quran 23:5–6 And who guard their private parts, except before their mates or those whom their right hands possess, for they surely are not blameable

    Therefore, if there are women amongst the captives or slaves, Muslims are divinely sanctioned to have sex with them as they do with their wives. This verdict of Allah founded the institution of sex-slavery or slave-concubinage in Islam, which was widespread in the pre-colonial Muslim world and continued well into the mid-twentieth century. As far as legal marriage is concerned, there is a limitation of four wives for a man at one time [Quran 4:3], but no such limitation on the number of sex-slaves.

    Allah also gave a divine sanction to Muslims for acquiring female slaves for sexual engagement by waging wars against the infidels:

    Quran 33:50O Prophet! surely We have made lawful to you your wives whom you have given their dowries, and those whom your right hand possesses out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war…

    Muslims can engage in sex with the captured slave women even if they are married, but not with the married free Muslim women:

    Quran 4:24 Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess…

    There are other verses in the Quran that talks approvingly of slaves and capturing them in wars. Thus, according to the divine commands of the Islamic God as enshrined in the holy Quran, Muslims are allowed to keep slaves. They can amass slaves by waging wars, have sex with the female slaves, and of course, use them as they wish. For Muslims, having sex with female slaves is as legal as having sex with their married wives. Slavery appears to be one of the most desired divine privileges in Islam, since Allah took the pain of reminding Muslims about this divine right time and again in so many verses.

    Qur’an, 33:21
    There is a good example in God’s apostle for those of you who look to God and the Last Day and remember God always.

    Hadith, Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 7, Book 62, No. 88
    Narrated Ursa:
    The prophet wrote the [marriage contract] with Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e.’ til his death).

  149. 09:26 Yes, but let the brain cells be tickled by the whole article from (the sadly now missing from the Spectator which seems to prefer lefty writers) Moore:-

    “I would argue that the true objection to modern politicians – including the Cameron coterie – should not be made along traditional class grounds. It is that most of them are part of a media/political/metropolitan class which has little to do with the wider life of the nation. By that definition, Labour, reliant on the public sector and politics itself as its trades, is the worst.”

    Labour is the worst. Can’t disagree with that. Labour might not laugh at those less fortunate but instead exploits them to gain power by keeping them in their disenfranchised, impoverished and hopeless state as a useful “cause” to crow about (either in hubris or faux outrage) from the top of the moral dung heap they have artfully created for themselves to strut on. Or, when the plight of the unfortunate is due to a situation less palatable for ever-selective Labour to engage against, they are ignored completely – as in Rotherham and Mid-Staffs – with much sweeping under carpet lest it should affect their votes.

    Labour. An evil party led by poisonous and deluded men and women. With a poisonous propagandist doing its dirty work hereabouts. Nothing to boast about. Much to be ashamed of.

  150. Weird story.Conservative candidate for Dudley North,Afzai Amin (ex-British Army Captain),suspended from party over claims he was consorting with the ENL and wanted them to claim to organize a demonstration in Dudley which he would would negotiate over to have it abandoned.The whistle was then blown on him by Tommy Robinson.
    An account is below,but the best (although bigoted) account is at the link to The Independent article.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32005848

  152. Radford NG @ 18:10

    What amazes, Radford, is that every party seems to have a number of suspects, individuals who do things they shouldn’t. Who does the selection? Does anyone checks their references? Is it only people who are inclined to cheat one way or another that offer themselves as candidates?

  153. John birch @ 08:36

    Here is a piece of statistics you may find of interest, John: The Koran contains over 150,000 words, of which only 4,000 suggest Muslims ought to be kind to those who don’t worship Allah.

  154. You recall the anger at Israel’s building a wall to keep terrorists out? The Saudis, who lodged a complaint with the UN, are today building a 900km wall on the country’s border with Iraq to keep intruders (ISIL?) out. Why doesn’t anyone protest?

  156. The Czech Government (and the MSM) have warned the unwashed not to throw tomatoes at the convoy of US military vehicles that will travel through the Republic territory for the planned military exercises in Poland (Ukraine). What has angered many is that the MSM were encouraging the public to pummel the Czech President with the same fruit not that long ago when the guy suggested that ‘kicking Russia will not bring in the desired result of a regime change’.

  158. Baron
    March 22nd, 2015 – 19:30
    Answer – the West, and this includes Britain and the USA can see no wrong in whatever the Allah Ass Crawlers do. Let’s hope the medics get to Syria and are blown to smithereens!

  163. Colonel Mustard @ 07:34

    ” Those same Americans …. who made a good fist of colonising the Philippines before the war…” and who still do, but disguise the fact by calling it a Republic…

  164. Mind you the banksters have taken over America and disguise the fact by continuing to call it a Republic…

  166. Baron 1947 some of us remember tussian tanks in wenceslas sq when therre was an uprisong. Early 70, s?

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