Douglas Murray has written two interesting articles in the Spectator and Standpoint magazine showing that while the Government, under the inspiring leadership of Baroness Warsi, has concentrated on the non-issue of Islamophobia, it should have been investing in dealing with the real threat posed by Islamism. The fact that an 85 year old British woman was arrested by police for shouting out as Muslims left their mosque after Friday prayers, while Michael Adebolajo, the murderer of Drummer Lee Rigby, seems to have been able to preach hate and incite violence on the streets for many years without interference by the forces of law and order seems to point to the working out of Warsi’s project. In an illustration of the complete misdirection of attention which Douglas Murray describes, the police force in Kent..
..said officers will continue to provide a high-visibility presence across the county this weekend to prevent potential reprisal attacks at Kent mosques. The heightened patrols come as police promised a “zero tolerance” approach to anyone who targets the county’s Muslim community.
Not a word about the duty of protecting the British non-Muslim population from the threat of those Muslims incited to perpetrate violence, of which Drummer Rigby is but one victim. But this is the outcome of a Government policy established over many years to deal with the minimal threat of violence against Muslims, while ignoring the manifest and manifold expression of violence against non-Muslims.
But it seems to me that Murray does not go far enough, and even adds to the cloud of confusion. He is certainly right to suggest that Islamophobia is not an unjustified aversion to or hatred of Muslims, but it is a reasonable awareness of the harm which Islam poses to Western societies and cultures. It is a measure of the tolerance of British society that even this awareness of the potential for harm which Islam poses does not usually result in any criminal response. By far the majority of racist assaults on Asian individuals are perpetrated by black individuals and gangs not the white British population. Mosques operate in towns and cities around the country with no routine obstacles or harassment.
Murray says that the focus should be on Islamism which he defines as a violent and extreme form of Islam. But I can’t agree. Indeed surely we must now finallly address the fact that the problem is Islam itself and not Islamism, as if those engaged in and supporting violence are ignorant of the teachings of Islam. On the contrary, they read the 109 passages in the Koran inciting violence against non-Muslims and obey them. That being so, how can they not be considered to be simply devout Muslims?
In the UK 24% of Muslims are sympathetic to terrorism, and over 100,000 positively support it. Certainly these represent statistical minorities, but can we really consider 100,000 Muslim supporters of terrorism and 900,000 sympathisers of terrorism to not represent Islam?
If a coachload of people called the Anti-Homosexual Death Squad arrived at the border in Dover we would expect them to be turned away as being not conducive to the public good. But each year tens and even hundreds of thousands of Muslims are invited into the UK who hold views which are inimicable to our British way of life. 65% of Pakistani Muslims reject the freedom of religion we enjoy in the UK and believe that those leaving Islam should be murdered. These are mainstream Islamic views, not Islamist views. Do we really want to allow more and more supporters of such views to settle in the UK? Yet this is what is happening.
Islamophobia is certainly a red herring, but so is the idea of a tiny Islamist population among a peaceful and tolerant Muslim majority. The facts don’t show that at all. Islam is the problem – let’s say that it is. We are completely able to distinguish between a dangerous ideology and those who hold it to various degrees. Not all Muslims are dangerous by any means, but Islam is. We cannot hide the reality behind different euphemisms.
The Muslim problem is manifold in many areas of our Country and the problem is this, even a good, god fearing, law abiding, hard working Modern Muslim Man has to go to his Mosque, unlike in the Protestant Church, where you can take it or leave it, a Modern Muslim has no choice but to go, if he doesn’t he is Ostracized from his community and finding that all his family and friends live in that community he has to along with what is said and done at his local Mosque by his Iman and the Elders that run the Mosque.
So when issues arise in their country of origin, say Afgahnistan, Iraq, Iran, Syria, the list is near endless, they obviously discuss what they can do to help, as many of them still have family that live in that area.
To top that off they will be in touch with the Iman in that country who will give them a first hand account of what is going on there, now that will be open to interpretation as to what account is given, The local Iman may have his own reasons for making them see things his way, maybe he needs money, so the stronger the sob story the better chance he has of getting more funds for his causes.
This then comes back to haunt us in this and other Countrys throughout the world as the Iman then teaches his version of Islam to his congregation and with no central figure in The Muslim Faith to put a clamp on things the problems then tip over and we see the Senseless and Brutal murder of an Off duty soldier like Lee Rigby last week, it wont stop there it will go on and on and on, there will be no cure for this problem apart from one.
The cure is a simple and effective one, to expel all Muslims, from The UK, Repatriate them to their Birth Country, any who don’t want to be expelled have to give up their Faith completely, All Mosques will be demolished as a result of this and then we can go back to being the Country we once were, Peaceful and at ease with each other.
Russell Taylor
What we need is a latter-day English version of Don Rodrigo Díaz de Vivar, (El Cid).
I notice on the Faith Matters website, an organisation which has set up a hot line to allow Muslims to report any sort of anti-Muslim attack, (the BBC seems to be giving them a free ride to present whatever statistics they want), there is a request for people, especially recent converts, to participate in a Channel 4 documentary on Ramadan (I’ve never see one on Lent), and Channel 4 especially want to hear from any Muslims who have suffered discrimination for wearing prayer clothing/hijab/burqa.
Looks like plenty of exciting programming in the months ahead from Channel 4.
Personally I’d like some decent documentaries representing real Christians rather than social workers, and some programmes describing the difficulties of being a white minority in places with a Muslim majority.
Peter from Maidstone May 31st, 2013 – 18:09.
Peter we know what to expect from the BBC, it is a corrupt mendacious arm of the left, I was going to say the liberal left but there is nothing liberal about today’s BBC.
A policy of some kind is necessary to rally around and to produce the reforms required. The June edition of the New English Review carries an article by an American writer that provides the following 18 point platform for consideration:
1. Repeal the crippling rules of engagement under which our soldiers are forced to labor. They should be given the freedom to defend themselves and protect their comrades.
2. Implement profiling of Muslims at airports and in hiring in professions in which national security and public safety could be compromised.
3. Immediate investigation into foreign mosque funding in the West and for new legislation making foreign funding of mosques in non-Muslim nations illegal.
4. Surveillance of mosques and regular inspections of mosques in the U.S. and other non-Muslim nations to look for pro-violence materials. Any mosque advocating jihad or any aspects of Sharia that conflict with Constitutional freedoms and protections should be closed.
5. Revise the curriculum and Islam-related materials in textbooks and museums to describe the Islamic doctrine and history accurately, including its violent doctrines and 1,400-year war against unbelievers.
6. Halt foreign aid to Islamic nations with Sharia-based constitutions and/or governments.
7. Forbid the use of Sharia law in any Western court or nation.
8. Implement deportation hearings against non-citizens who promote jihad in our nations.
9. Halt immigration by Muslims into nations that do not currently have a Muslim majority population.
10. Provide that anyone seeking citizenship in the United States should be asked if he or she supports Sharia law, and investigated for ties to pro-Sharia groups. If so, citizenship should not be granted.
11. Immediate cancellation of citizenship or permanent residency status for anyone who leaves the country of his residence to travel for the purpose of engaging in jihad activity, and for the refusal of reentry into his country of residence after that jihad activity.
12. Investigation of Muslims resident in non-Muslim countries who have obtained naturalized citizenship or permanent residency status, to ensure that that status was not obtained under false pretenses.
13. Designation of the following as grounds for immediate deportation: fomenting, plotting, financing, attempting or carrying out jihad attacks; encouraging or threatening or attempting to carry out the punishments Islamic law mandates for apostasy, adultery, blasphemy, fornication or theft; threatening or attempting or carrying out honor murders, forced marriage, underage marriage, female genital mutilation, or polygamy.
14. Free nations should have jihad, as it is traditionally understood in Islamic jurisprudence to involve warfare against and subjugation of non-Muslims, declared a crime against humanity at the U.N., or to withdraw from the U.N. and have its headquarters moved to a Muslim nation.
15. Legislation should be passed making illegal the foreign funding of Islamic Studies departments and faculty positions in our universities.
16. Immediate repeal of U.N. resolution 16/18 and any other resolutions that might limit the freedom of speech.
17. All Muslim chaplains in prisons and the military should be thoroughly vetted, and dismissed if they have ties to any Islamic supremacist group, or if they advocate jihad.
18. The development of energy policies that will free us from dependence upon oil from Muslim countries.
http://www.newenglishreview.org/custpage.cfm/frm/139807/sec_id/139807
May be these 18 points could be circulated to EU and UK members of parliament for debate…,
Malfleur et all. We all know what needs to be done – and we all know nothing will be done. We have a Muslim running the USA and Muslim apologist cowards running every other western nation.
How many wi-fi warriors will actually take action? None, I suspect. How many are prepared to carry out the following:-
Stop using Muslim-owned businesses.
Ask at the supermarket checkout if something is halal and if it is or if they don’t know, refuse to buy it. Perhaps two dozen determined protesters could shut down a major supermarket for a couple of hours by blocking off the tills in this way.
Repeat at Motorway service areas – just leave the food at the checkout and refuse to pay. It’s not theft and there is nothing they can do unless they prominently label all hot food.
How about a group, separately, fully booking a restaurant then refusing to eat their because they sell halal food?
Granted, it’s far easier here as their are less of them but face it, until business goes to governments to complain Islam is costing them profits, nothing will change except for the worse.
‘Islamophobia is certainly a red herring, but so is the idea of a tiny Islamist population among a peaceful and tolerant Muslim majority. The facts don’t show that at all. Islam is the problem – let’s say that it is. We are completely able to distinguish between a dangerous ideology and those who hold it to various degrees. Not all Muslims are dangerous by any means, but Islam is. We cannot hide the reality behind different euphemisms…’
Hello Peter.
I honestly take no pleasure in this but the problems presented in the above I feel are worthy of further reflection and perhaps disussion.
This is what I mean.
The vast majority are peaceful. They want to do the shopping and watch football and play with their grandchildren.
However, a dangerous and seemingly unhinged but powerful minority want to invade Iraq. The majority are alarmed. The country witnesses it’s biggest ever mass demonstration (the Stop The War March) but the 1 million marchers in London are ignored.
Leading politicians (the political Party makes no difference to these extremists) even go as far as to accuse those who want NO WAR of being DANGEROUS to peace and security.
So the invasion goes ahead and according to Coalition Forces 250,000 die.
The UN says 600,000.
The Red Cross says 400,000*.
Now if we consider the destruction of Iraq only took a couple of weeks, then we can appreciate that the slaughter would have put the old Esatzgruppen to shame.
No joke, its not as though the Iraqs could actually fight back or anything. It’s not as though our Heros were actually fighting battles against other soldiers who were fighting back. Iraq had lost 750,000 children dead because of our sanctions in the previous decade (UN figures) alone. These people were not a danger to anyone.
No aircraft flew against our Heros.
No missiles fired against our boys.
No revenge terrorism in the UK as darkly promised by experts.
No war crimes trials over the use of Depleted Uranium on civilian targets (reservoirs, hospitals, powerstations***).
As with Gulf war 1 ‘we’ lost more lives to over eager US Forces (& a politically correct helicopter accident….women pilots having lower training requirements & higher accident rates) than we lost to the enemy during actual ‘fighting’.
When the ostensive reason for the slaughter is exposed as an obvious lie, there are no arrests of those most responsible.
Everyone knew that WMD was a lie**, but with extremists in control the Courts, the MSM, the police etc are all effectivly working for those extremists. Vote for who you like; it won’t make any difference.
As a child could have predicted, the extremists, drenched in the blood of thouisands of innocents are emboldened by their ‘success’ and continued electoral support.
So, despite the vast majority of us being ‘peaceful’ our Heros then went into Afghanistan that saw an 800% increase in heroin production and ZERO burning of the thousands of sq kms of poppy fields. More dangerous extremism with dire consequences for the world.
Egypt, Libya then Syria.
The extremists bring death, destruction and mass murder under the purile excuse of ‘democracy’ even as they sneer at democracy and cast iron pledges in their own countries.
Now.
When we stand before our Maker (with, we pray, our Saviour to plead for us) and we are asked about the extremists, the ‘facts’ that lay before us and what we did to prevent the slaughter of His innocents on Earth….are we really going to start off by condemning the ‘extremists’ who have killed 58 in this country since the birth of Christ?
(I would exclude 7/7 as I do not accept the Official Story. So for me the correct figure would be 1, not 58)
We’d better not!
We’d better not have the nerve….and we won’t have the nerve.
‘It is a measure of the tolerance of British society that even this awareness of the potential for harm which Islam poses does not usually result in any criminal response.’
Looked at from the preceding perspective you are correct about the surprising lack of death and destruction in the UK.
Surprising, as it sure aint the police looking after us.
….and they say there is no God….
Regs.
I’ll be interested in reading your response Peter, should you find the time.
‘ …..I was going to say the liberal left but there is nothing liberal about today’s BBC.’
D. Ossit
Correct.
A better word than ‘liberal’ is ‘authoritarian’.
* all figures from memory but my memory will be accurate.
** A lifelong friend is now a Colonel in the Royal Marines. I once asked him, ‘How many Officers that you knew actually belived in WMD?’, he answered after 2 seconds thought, ‘Not one’.
*** The alternative media was explaining that DU weapons cause cancers to the troops using them as well as others in the vicinity who are more innocent for years after their use, to any who would listen. A few weeks ago the DM ran a story,’I’m convinced my rare cancer was caused by DR shells in Iraq’ a female soldier explained as she begged money to travel to the USA to get the treatment she needed. So that she could return to working in the army, her ‘dream’ she explained. Presumably, she would return to Iraq if ordered. Presumably to fire DR shells if instructed.
The Daily Mail made no mention of the civilians who have to LIVE WHERE THE DR STILL REMAINS IN THEIR COUNTRY WHERE ‘WE’ PUT IT. She only had about a month to live so I do not know if she achieved her dream of going back in the army.
Hi John, thanks for taking the time to think and post.
I guess I have a few things to say in response. Not arguing or anything. Just thinking out loud.
i. I think your figures for deaths are too high, and much too high for civilian casualties caused by the military intervention in Iraq. The best guesses I can see from various sources are about 25-35,000 civilian deaths due to military causes. We only have to follow the news to see that by far the majority of continuing casualities are caused by Muslims killing Muslims. The number of markets where Muslims have blown up other Muslim women and children seems past counting. At the moment Muslims are still killing each other, and killing Christians.
ii. There was certainly deceit involved in the invasion of Iraq. And incompetence and narrow self-interest, on the part of many politicians. But these do represent a tiny extremist minority. As you said, there was a very large march against the war which was ignored. But we are not a democracy, and we are both unable to presently control our political class, or be held responsible for their actions. It is also the case that we have left Afghanistan and are leaving Iraq. We have no interest in occupying either country, and to a great extent many people involved in both countries have been trying to establish free and democratic societies (a thankless and impossible task).
This is the opposite of Islam in every place. It began as a military ideology sweeping across Arabia and North Africa, destroying civilisation everywhere it went. And it has continued to be a military ideology, suppressing and oppressing local communities and continuing to be willing to use violence in the establishment of a global and universal Islamic state.
Certainly Western force may be seen as aggressive in certain circumstances, but as far as I can see the West has not been conquering countries, it has been engaged in conflict but has then withdrawn as far and as quickly as possible. 9/11 took place before the invasion of Afghanistan, and therefore could not have been caused by that invasion. In fact Islamic aggression has been a constant since the 7th century when the civilisations of Egypt and Carthage were destroyed, and continued into the Middle Ages, the Siege of Constantinople, and to the present.
iii. There is also the fact that effectively 0% of British people, indigenous British people, believe that those who change their religion should be murdered. But 64% of Pakistani Muslims do, and over 80% of devout Muslims do. As Tony Blair has said, there is something wrong with the heart of Islam. And so there is. Similarly high levels of Pakistani Muslims believe that girls should be murdered if they ‘dishonour’ their families.
This is nothing to do with Afghanistan or Iraq. It is the unpleasant heart of the Islamic ideology. If there had been no recent invasions (and withdrawals) these would still be majority views of many Muslims communities. Just as the establishment by force of the Islamic global state is also the definite opinion of a great many Muslims.
Certainly some of our politicians have views which are their own, and they do represent a minority, even a corrupt minority, but it is Islam itself and very large numbers of Muslims who hold these views which are inimicable to our society, not an insignificant minority at all, and not incited by any Western aggression at all. Women are stoned to death in Afghanistan today by devout Muslims whether or not the US armed forces are present.
Hi Peter & thanks for your response.
Is there some Law of Cyberspace that we find an interesting debate only when it gets late at night? Never around 2pm on a rainy Bank Holiday? I mean, never.
Well, if there is such a law then it’s probably been handed down by Brussels (with an obvious exemption for the French as they refuse to blog during their 2hour long meals. Or their notorious 4 day weekends).
So, it’s to bed but I’m looking forward to replying to your 21:19 above tomorrow.
Regs.
ps i know what you mean about those casualty figures. Still, i did memorise them as they seemed so very high. Blair was interviewed around that time and the 600,000 figure was used by the BBC. I recall ‘The spectator’ saying it was too high. I certainly think so as well.
I’ll attempt to check up by tomorrow.
The American desire to keep military casualties low would have produced civilian deaths on a huge and totally unnucessary scale however (unnecessary in as much as those being killed were not actually ressisting the Americans).
During their (ahem, illegal) invasion of Panama they ‘shelled’ a complex of high rises and killed 15,000 or so civilians rather than, well, rather than actually fight any malitia that might shoot the odd Marine. Better safe than sorry.
Hello again Peter.
Right, where were we?
At the bottom are a few online guesses at the number slaughtered in Iraq. Most from the notorious Wiki.
Thank goodness the quote iof 600,000 does not appear. Cold comfort however. I regard the deaths of those after the invasion as being the consequence of the invasion.
Do you know SAS were caught (in beard from the photo I saw) killing people to provoke internal violence?
This is from the top of the search…the Daily Mail is there for ironic/comic effect. I suppose some would laugh for different reasons (a truly ‘inclusive’ joke!).
:-
Basra prison incident – Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basra_prison_incidentCached
SimilarThe Basra prison incident is a controversial event involving British troops in Basra, Iraq. … two undercover British Special Air Service soldiers disguised in Arab civilian … Controversies surrounding people captured during the War on Terror …
The Insider – British special forces caught dressed as Arab ‘terrorists’www.theinsider.org/news/article.asp?id=1556Cached
SimilarSep 20, 2005 – British soldiers have been caught posing as Arabs and shooting Iraqis in the occupied city of Basra in southern Iraq. A group of them was …
Investigator in Basra dies,, investigation Elite SAS men disguised as …inlightofrecentevents.wordpress.com/investigator-in-basra-dies-investigat…CachedThe British SAS honed its “counter-insurgency” techniques in Northern ….. IRAQ Americans disguised in Arab Dress captured in the act of setting off a car bomb …
How the SAS defied orders to launch the most audacious rescue of …www.dailymail.co.uk/…/How-SAS-defied-orders-launch-audacious-rescu…SimilarMay 15, 2010 – Captured by insurgents, banged up in a cell and physically beaten, they were … Surely they could do the same for their own guys in Iraq, in 2005? … Disguised as Arabs, their job was simply to find out where he lived so that …
__________
I recognise this will be impossible to accept for many. Well things ain’t what they used to be. I only mention this as you correctly pointed out some deaths would be M. on M. after the invasion. So, ‘yes’ and ‘no’ on that score. I can’t help but wonder if this country was invaded, power removed, water supply gone how much English on English violence might occur after a year or three of anarchy?
‘But we are not a democracy, and we are both unable to presently control our political class, or be held responsible for their actions’
Agreed.
I said some time ago the political class were out of control. Behind them lurks the power of international finance and that power remains in the service of evil.
I would say though that every one of those who chose to give political approval to the current ‘regime’ (too strong?) is a part of the problem. they are increasing their responsibility.
‘It is also the case that we have left Afghanistan and are leaving Iraq.’
Yep, but it’s a bit like trashing someone’s party and saying, ‘OK then….I’ll leave.’
I read that 5BillionUS that had been declared for ‘reconstruction’ could only be used to by US GM food. These people are evil and we should say so. Or perhaps you do….
Y’know, as for ‘not conquering a country’ as you say; I’ve some sympathy with the idea that Empires were too expensive. So, these days they just want destroyed, fractured, GM fed, ‘post’ societies with some gaurds around the oil rigs and the thickest extremist they can find in the nearest palace & called ‘President’ or whatever. Though the current Heroin dealing PM of Afghanistan said recently the US/west was supporting/creating/directing terrorism in his country……so not all of them will shadap it seems.
Not being in occupation of the wreckage we caused is morally a mute point from my perspective.
‘iii. There is also the fact that effectively 0% of British people, indigenous British people, believe that those who change their religion should be murdered. But 64% of Pakistani Muslims do, and over 80% of devout Muslims do’
They are backward.
I feel safe in saying that zero actual attacks have occured in the UK. With 1Million Muslims these views are hard to assess.
what if a survey were to ask,’ Would you Nuke the Muslim arabs and take all their oil?’ what might the (anonymous) response be?
Until they start DOING not SAYING I cannot know how real this potential horror is.
If this country were still civilised; such views would not dare slither into the light. Have you seen the riots in Turkey?
How many of those are afraid to be killed for not attending Mosque?
OUR OWN degeneracy is animating these dark forces in Islam, in the ‘environmental’ authoritarians, in the organised sexual perverts, in the ever expanding schoolgirl abortion industry, let alone the drug Primary school Children with Ritalin industry………
We know all this, and much worse to come, is a consequence of our turning away from Him.
I blush at the certainty with which some cry, ‘The Muslims threaten our civilisation’.
It no longer exists.
That’s our problem. To me the rest is noise.
Kind Regards.
______________________________________________________
‘Costs of War’ Project
Iraq War: 190,000 lives, $2.2 trillion
Brown University
Associated Press 110,600 violent deaths March 2003 to April 2009
Costs of War Project 176,000–189,000 violent deaths including 134,000 civilians[1][2][3]
March 2003 to February 2013
Iraq Body Count project 112,667–123,284 civilian deaths from violence. 174,000 civilian and combatant deaths[4][5][6][7] March 2003 to March 2013
Iraq Family Health Survey 151,000 violent deaths March 2003 to June 2006
Lancet survey 601,027 violent deaths out of 654,965 excess deaths March 2003 to June 2006
Opinion Research Business survey 1,033,000 deaths as a result of the conflict March 2003 to August 2007
WikiLeaks. Classified Iraq War Logs[4][8][9][10] 109,032 deaths including 66,081 civilian deaths.[11][12] January 2004 to December 2009